Meeting Minutes


NFPA Correlating Committee on Fire and Emergency Services Protective Clothing and Equipment (FAE-AAC)

NFPA 1802, 1977 and 1984 First Draft Meeting Agenda (F2020) June 25-26, 2019
NFPA HQ’s and Conference Center, Quincy, MA

Meeting Adobe Connect/Teleconference Call Information: See Outlook Invitation

Start Time: 2:00pm on the first day Adjourn by 2:00pm on the second day

1.    Call to Order, Bill Haskell, Chair (2:02pm)

2.    Introduction of Members and Guests

·         Bill Haskell

·         Ben Mauti

·         John Morris

·         Jeff Stull

·         Beth Lancaster

·         Tim Tomlinson

·         Steve Weinstein

·         George Broyles (US Fire Service)

·         Jeremy Metz

·         Karen Lehtonen

·         Pat Freeman

·         Christine Fargo

·         Bob Athanas

·         Doug Menard

·         Jian Xiang

·         Mike McKenna

·         Harry Winer

·         Kevin Roche

·         Rick Swan

·         Robert Tutterow

·         Brian Montgomery

·         Dick Weise

·         Dave Bernzweig

·         Steve Miles

·         Guests:

1.    Tim Gardner

2.    Jason Horowitz – Gore Hazmat

3.    Brian Sullivan

4.    Clint

5.    Marni

6.    Bob Keys

7.    Some NFPA folks

·         Phone:

1.    Bill Van Lendt

2.    Jason Allen

3.    Josh Ingram

4.    Tony Petrilli

5.    Tricia Hock

6.    Bruce Varner

7.    Tom (US Navy)

8.    Bob Stein (NIOSH)

9.    Dave Matthews – Wednesday

10.  Tony Petrilli – Wednesday

11.  Roger Barker - Wednesday

3.    NFPA Staff Liaison Report, Chris Farrell

·         Chris Farrell covered meeting rules and expectations and explained the various actions Correlating Committee could take related to First Draft reports.


2.    First Correlating Revision (FCR) – changes to text

3.    Correlating Note (does not affect the text, box will indicate there’s something there)

4.    Ballot is on FCR ONLY – not on notes

4.    Chairman Remark’s, Bill Haskell

·         Chairman Haskell acknowledged that our agenda has contentious items to discuss and reminded everyone to keep it civil

5.    Approval of Minutes from the May 31, 2019 Teleconference Meeting – moved and approved

6.    Emergency Response & Responder Safety (ERRS) Standards Consolidation, NFPA Standard Administration Representatives, Discussion and Q&A Session  - Michael Witsek

·         Table 1. New or Existing Document Names & Standards Included in New Documents

1.    This topic garnered extensive discussion because of the ramifications renumbering will have on end users, organizations, and government organizations. Current standard numbers are written in to legislation and grant opportunities and changing them “will harm people”.

·         Table 2. Groups/Editions, Current Cycle, New ERRS Custom Cycle, Current Edition & New ERSS Edition

1.    There was some discussion around the philosophy behind the groupings (NFPA had multiple rules they needed to follow) and there was discussion about timing, workload, and moving some items to other groups.

·         January & November Consolidated First/Second Draft Meeting Blocks

1.    This was discussed in the context of NFPA trying to explain their vision for meetings without providing a detailed schedule, which is not available yet.

·         There was a lot of discussion about NFPA’s motivations for making this change, things they must consider, and the brutal lack of communication to affected committees and committee members.

·         NFPA claimed they got a lot of input from stakeholders and they described their motivations for doing this. Committee members expressed concerns about how these changes will actually defy NFPA’s stated goals and is not end-user-focused.  NFPA clearly stated that this project is a very small part of the 114 standards they are grouping together, and it took two hours before they realized committee members had legitimate concerns and were trying to help NFPA not cut off its nose to spite its face.

·         There was also discussion about the lack of transparency and lack of trust members have in NFPA.

·         Committee members also discussed how chapters 1, 2, and 3 will be handled as they will be common across groupings.

·         Committee members asked the Staff Liaison to, at minimum, commit to updating the committee monthly. The Staff Liaison responded that he can but that it might be, “There is no update” and the committee members will become bored. Committee members simply want accountability and transparency from NFPA.

7.    Standards Council Action – Comprehensive Standards Development Approach to Address All Aspects of Fire Service Contamination Control, NFPA Standards Administration Representatives and Q&A Session

·         Standards Council Task Group Meeting & Recommendations

·         New Technical Committee on Emergency Responders Occupational Health (ERH-AAA) responsible for:

1.    NFPA 1580 Standard for Contamination Control (new standard)

2.    NFPA 1581 Standard for Fire Department Infection Control Program

3.    NFPA 1582 Standard on Comprehensive Occupational Medical Program for Fire Departments

·         The committee discussed NFPA’s plan to handle contamination control and expressed dismay that clear, logical input from many people was disregarded and NFPA is proceeding in a way that goes against the recommendations of those involved and who have a clear understanding of what the end users need.

·         This will also have an impact on DOD, DOJ, and many other organizations.

8.    Technical Committee First Draft Reports

·         NFPA 1802 – TC Chairman Bob Athanas

1.    Chairman Athanas provided the history of the standard and highlighted main points included in the first draft.

2.    Chairman Haskell acknowledged that a lot of work was done with manufacturers and he commended Chairman Athanas on his efforts.

·         NFPA 1977 – TC Chairman George Broyles

1.    There was much discussion about adding “Urban Interface Firefighting” to the title, the updated sizing chart, test method changes, and fire shelters (the fire service very clearly wants something in the standard for fire shelters).

2.    The committee discussed the second revision process and noted this will be balloted.

·         NFPA 1984 – TC Chairman Steve Miles

1.    This report garnered much discussion related to wildland, urban interface, and SCBA respiratory protection and the lack of research into wildland and UI respiratory protection needs.

2.    The ballot came back mostly affirmative with opposition from Forest Service and NIOSH.

9.    Technical Committee Chair Reports

·         TC on ELS, Bob Athanas

1.    Second Draft meeting for 1801 is in July and one major change is expected related to moving temperature measurement from Basic to Basic+ mode as this will require special training and, hopefully, will limit firefighters misusing TICs

·         TC on EMS, Tricia Hock

1.    The reorganization will have a major impact on this standard and they will have to redo the First Draft meeting.

·         TC on HAZ, Christina Baxter (Jeff Stull reported)

1.    The changes to 1991 were minimal and made to harmonize 1991 and 1992, the reorg will force the combination of the two standards.

2.    1891 is in First Draft and is in same cycle for reorg, there is time to work on that

·         TC on RPE, Steve Miles

1.    The 2018 edition will require pneumatic data logging.

2.    The HUD task group is active, has a huge scope, and is surveying the fire service for input on prioritization

3.    Compressor stations are moving back into 1989

·         TC on SCE, Jeremy Metz

1.    The 1951/1953 Second Draft meeting is in July in Minneapolis

2.    Escape hooks and a potential TIA was discussed, it is likely the TIA will not be submitted.

3.    Chairman Metz asked the Staff Liaison about the process for clearing out the TC application hold list and the Staff Liaison committed to working through the list this summer.

·         TC on SPF, Tim Tomlinson

1.    Chairman Tomlinson reported out on the status of 1851 (all TIAs and the NITMAM were passed at C&E) and the estimated publication date is August.

2.    Task groups are already working on 1971

·         TC on TTO, Brian Montgomery

1.    Task groups are working to refine and assess the new test method

2.    There is still no product certified to 1986 and the reorg means the next cycle is moved).

·         TC on WFF, George Broyles

1.    1977 2nd draft in March (2023 is calendar year you’ll meet, 2025 is the edition date, goes to 2024 annual meeting)

2.    1877 still kind of on hold

10.  ISO – Dave Matthews (added during meeting)

·         There was a meeting held last week in Ireland, and several US representatives attended

·         The committee started looking at water rescue, received a presentation on water absorption, and is working on a revision of 11092 (related to Ret)

·         Mr. Matthews submitted a report with list of standards, which continues to grow

·         There is a Joint Working Group on firefighter respiratory protection

·         There will be a meeting 3M in St. Paul, Minnesota in October

·         Working group meetings will be held in November in Melbourne, Australia

·         The next SC meeting is in June 2020 right after Interschutz in Hanover

11.  Task Group on Definitions – Update, TG Chair Karen Lehtonen

·         The reorganization of standards greatly impacts this task group and work will be reassessed.

12.  Task Group on Restricted Substances in PPE – Update, TG Chair Jeff Stull

·         TG Chair Jeff Stull reviewed slides (which will, presumably, be included in the meeting minutes) and discussed the goals and expectations of the task group.

·         This will be an open, transparent process.

·         There was no opposition expressed to the general direction of the task group.

13.  Task Group on Service Complaints and Verification Process- Update, TG Chair Jason Allen

·         TG Chair Allen stated that he needs to restart the TG again and will do so right after the holiday. He will have more to report at the next meeting.

14. Proposed Standard for Evaluating the Integration and Interoperability of Protective Ensembles for Fire fighters and other First Responders – Update, Jeff Stull

·         The Staff Liaison provided an update.

15. Old Business - none

16. New Business

·         The Staff Liaison announced that Rick Swan is the likely next chair

·         The group discussed the need to figure out how Correlating Committee meetings will work with the reorganization. NFPA has not worked that out yet.

·         Jeremy Metz asked about the process for requesting pre-first draft meetings. The Staff Liaison responded that chairpersons should work with their staff liaison to get it budgeted and scheduled.

1.    Jeremy requested one for December

·         Karen Lehtonen asked how chapters 1, 2, and 3 were being handled or if the TCs had to figure it out.

1.    The Staff Liaison stated they are already working on it and the documents are merged and in Editorial for final review (mainly checking the accuracy of references). The document will be posted for Public Input in September.

·         The January meeting will be the week of January 26

17. Next Meeting – end of Oct/beginning November for 1952/1953 – may be teleconference

18. The committee thanked Bill Haskell for all of his work and involvement in the committee.

19.  Motion to adjourn 1:23pm on June 26th